BetUS

VISA

Hi bacaratt123 - welcome to ThePOGG.com!
 
Firstly, there is a substantial logical inconsistency in asserting that you are a high roller, regularly betting $1k/hand, when you also state that you have two jobs (warehouse manager and sales associate). For both of these statements to be trust one of two things has to be true:

i) You are betting at a risk level that is substantially above what you can afford and is likely to end up in significant financial difficulty if you continue to bet at this level.

or

ii) You are an educated player who knows how to select smart wagers to offset the risk and gain an advantage over the house.

While we couldn't comment on your skill level without reviewing your actual play, either or both of these potential outcomes is likely to worry any gambling operator.

If you are just a regular gambler, you need to adjust your risk tolerance urgently before gambling ends up wiping you out.

Before going further we need to be clear that we are not your legal counsel and nothing below should be considered 'legal advice'. We are simply providing observations based on our experiences of situations similar to your own. If you want to receive legal advice you need to engage with an appropriately qualified and licensed professional.

Secondly, you are playing with an unlicensed, illegal, gambling site. The US government has not been able to shut this group down. Your legal recourse, including arbitration, is likely to be extremely limited by the offshore nature of this operator.

Ideally, it is always better to have a written record of all communications. And if you were going to engage via a call, a recorded call is better. But the reality of your situation is that with the very low likelihood you can ever use these records in court, you should take any opportunity you can to recover any of the confiscated balance you can. If the operator is prepared to offer a partial payout via a non-recorded phone call, that's better for you than holding to a written-only position and getting nothing.

While we can look to raise the matter with the operator, we need to be clear that the chances of a successful mediation in these circumstances are very low.

Let us know how you would prefer to proceed.

ThePOGG

Thank you for your reply. I'll now address the points you made. 

The main point I need to clarify is first that when I said 3rd party arbitrator, I meant The Pogg. I do not mean lawsuit. I am not trying to pursue legal action against an offshore casino. I am not seeking legal advice, I’m seeking advice that would make the arbitration process go as smoothly as possible if it were to result in arbitration.

Regarding my bet size, on i),  I do have two jobs and they pay pretty well. I can afford the bets. I know people IRL with less income than me and bets more than I do. 

On ii), I alluded to this in the original message. But I'll state it again. I've played almost every table game and every video poker and my bet size is huge in all of them. I don't “select” “smart wager” to high roll, I high roll all of them. I’m usually at table max for most games. For this casino, table max is usually about $100-$500 depending on the table.

I’ll propose an iii) option that you’ve overlooked. Which is that I'm not high rolling for an extended period of time with high amounts of rounds. My bet size might be big but my amount of rounds is probably significantly lower than a regular person. That’s because I usually set a daily loss limit and win limit and will stop when either is reached. For example my bet sizing can be $300/hand, and I will stop for the day (or maybe even for the week) if I win $3000 or lose $3000. I treat each gaming day as a new session. Sometimes I reach my win target or loss allowance in less than 10 minutes. Then I end the session. I know “When to quit” per se, both while I’m up or if I’m down.

Also, my bet is not REGULARLY over $1000, but it OFTEN is. It's usually in the hundreds, and when it goes over $1000 in a round it's usually because the hand increases the bet in the middle of the round. Such as splits and doubles in blackjack. It rarely starts over $1000 at the beginning of the hand, as that would exceed table maximum in almost all the games.

No max bet terms exist on the site, and once again, no bonuses are involved to begin with so bet size should be irrelevant as a reason for confiscation.



If I may point out please, with all due respect, your very hostile choice of words for BetUS that I rarely see in your other reports. “unlicensed, illegal, gambling site” are quite hostile words, given that you’ve helped arbitrate many US-facing offshore casinos for players for many years. I don’t see why BetUS is different in that regard, compared to any other offshore casino. I forgot where, but they told me they are indeed liscensed.  Again, I point this out with all due respect, and really curious why BetUS gets this kind of wording from you. (Even though they are the villain in my case, I still think the wording is too extreme)

In my state, the only online gambling available are all offshore. We do not have access to sites such as BetMGM. It’s been this way since 2006. BetUS is supposedly one of the larger sites we have access to. They claim to have over 2 million player accounts and claim to have been around for 25 years.




FInally, I want to ask why you think the chances of successful mediation is “VERY low”.

I saw on your website that the chances of a successful mediation is roughly 50/50, with acting as official ADR being higher, but still a good chance at successful mediation even when acting unofficially. $7 million recovered in total. 

I’d like to know why you think my chances are significantly lower than the average person complaining against a US-facing offshore casino, especially given:

-The casino does not even have a term that allows them to confiscate.
-No bonuses were involved.
-I can prove that I’m not a professional gambler.

It seems like the average complaint on your site involves the player being accused of bonus abuse, and that the casino either has specific detailed terms on the rules of the bonus (such as max bet), which you usually found the case for the casino. Or the casino has a vague spirit of the bonus term, which you usually found for the player.

In my case the casino has absolutely no such term. Which is why I’m confused as to why you think the chances of success in this case is lower than the average bonus abuser. It seems like cut and dry case of the casino breaking their own terms in order to not pay.

Hi bacaratt123,

It's nice to see that people read the reports that we publish.  However you've significantly misinterpreted the information provided.

Yes our success rate when acting as an ADR - which we can only do under the MGA license and for a limited selection of operators - is around 51%. Across all complaints we rule in favor of the player around 69% of the time. But the key difference is that ADR complaints the operator has to abide by our rulings. Outside of our ADR remit ruling in favor of the player does not mean the operator has to do anything.

Likewise, we do not recommend that any player engage with any improperly licensed US operator. They are high risk and have a low rate of compliance (or even response) to complaints.

In the case of BetUS, you can see that of the 3 cases submitted to us previously, all three were Resolved, but 2 of the 3 were marked Resolved because the player stopped responding to us. The chances of this operator responding to us are low.  If they do respond, the likelihood of the operator complying with our ruling if they don't like it are even lower.

Your chances of a successful mediation are no lower than any US player who chooses to play with an unlicensed operator. They're poor for any player that finds themselves in this situation.

The wording we selected isn't extreme. It's factually accurate. BetUS are unlicensed and they are breaking US laws to accept play from US citizens. 

Given the bet size you have stated, even with a six figure income your risk of ruin if you play any significant number of wagers is far too high for your income level and likely to get you in trouble if you persist.

I hope the above answers your questions.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi The Pogg,

Thank you for clarifying many points in your message. I indeed did misunderstand “success rate” as the probability of recovering the disputed money. Unfortunately, I do not see any Malta licensed casinos available in my state. The only choices I have are the ones that don’t have you as an official ADR.

As for BetUS’s license, I did remember they said they were indeed licensed somewhere. So I looked it up, and found this: 

“All BetUS Group transactions are accepted and legally processed under the approval of the Government of Costa Rica.”

Looks like they do have a regulator. I wonder if that changes the equation? As in if the regulator gets involved, do they have to abide by the regulator’s ruling. 

As for my bet size, I don’t really have a “risk of ruin” for my total net worth, but only on a session-by-session basis. The reason is because I do NOT “ play any significant number of wagers”. I was trying to explain that I set a win target or a loss allowance per session, and do the session maybe something like once per week, once per couple weeks, etc. 

In my personal experience I reach that win/loss limit usually pretty quickly and don’t end up placing too many bets. Like I said, sometimes within 10 minutes. Perhaps you can run the math for me, if you’re willing to, just out of curiosity. If my bet size is 2 hands of $200, (i.e. $400) on blackjack, and my win target or loss limit is $3000, How many average bets do I end up placing in that session and how much do I lose on average. What is my chance of hitting the win target vs the loss limit. From personal experience it didn’t take too long, and I’ve had plenty of winning sessions.

I don’t have that “risk of ruin” issue because if I lose enough sessions in a row I’ll pause and wait to get more money before continuing. Since I set my loss limit, I’m never “gambling what I can’t afford to lose”.

What you said was ironically, very correct when it came to bonuses. Back when I used to play with bonuses, I couldn’t just “stop and end the session” because there’s a rollover involved. And because of the rollover, always ended up keeping playing until the entire balance was lost. I stopped using bonuses so I can control when to call it quits, whether I’m up and want my winnings, or down and want to cut my losses.

Hi bacaratt123,

There are a number of operators that misrepresent that they are licensed in Costa Rica. Costa Rica does not license online gambling operators. Online gambling is illegal in Costa Rica. Operators claiming to hold a Costa Rican gambling license really mean that they hold a standard business license in the country. The only standard with any relevance to gambling that an online gambling operator has to meet is that they do not accept Costa Rican players.

No you won't find any MGA licensees willing to accept US players (other than one sweepstake type operator). 

Unfortunately if your state has not licensed online casino gambling, your only options are bad options. We'd recommend players in these states not to engage in online gambling. If you really cannot abstain, then choose a sweepstake/social casino type operator. These operators are not licensed gambling, but they utilise a loophole in US law that allows them to offer gambling without being licensed. At least under this model you may have some legal recourse if things go wrong. Where you play with a full blown illegal gambling site, it's counting on the operator's goodwill to receive any payout and, as I'm sure you can infer, if the operator hasn't shown goodwill before you approach us, the chances are low that they'll change their position for us.

With regard to your question on your session chances - I can't simulate playing two hands of $200 at the moment, but if we went with one hand of $300 (offsets one against the other - two hands reduces varience, but the higher total bet increases it, so we use one hand with a lower total bet). Here are the results you would get if you always either play until you win $3000 or lose $3000:

<img src="https://thepogg.com/uploads/2023/08/blackjack.jpg"></img>

So you will win 47.3% of the time and your average loss per session will be $107.29. This assumes a player friendly ruleset. It also assumes you play perfect basic strategy. If there are poor rules (like 6 to 5 for Blackjack) or you don't know/use basic strategy it will significantly impact these figures. As will varying your bet size. 

The average playing session will see you wager a total of ~$23,300 or roughly 80 hands. 

Note that this is radically different to regularly betting $1k/hand.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Date – 27/08/2023

This complaint has been checked. Work is ongoing on this matter. We will revert to you when we have new relevant information to share.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Date – 03/09/2023

This complaint has been checked. Work is ongoing on this matter. We will revert to you when we have new relevant information to share.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Date – 10/09/2023

This complaint has been checked. Work is ongoing on this matter. We will revert to you when we have new relevant information to share.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi The Pogg.

Thank you for the blackjack analysis, that was very insightful. If you don’t mind, can you also do an analysis for the same win/loss targets for $100 starting bet Mississippi stud? If not, that's ok.
Regarding the bet sizing. I’ll clarify again, you misunderstood me when I said I often bet $1k in one round. I have to specify that it is not a starting bet size of $1k at the beginning of the round. Because BetUS’s table maximums are usually $500. That is the amount I reach if the hand calls for adding wager after the initial bet. If I bet $250, split, double, double in blackjack, that’s $1000. If I bet $100 and take max odds on the don’ts in craps, that’s $1000. I was referring to how much total I wagered in one round as opposed to how much I started the round with. I hope that clears things up. 
 
As for my situation and our next steps, I’ll start with my current understanding of the situation with mediators and US facing casinos. Tell me if I’m understanding the lay of the land correctly.
 
When a player has a conflict with a US facing casino, they take it to 3rd party arbitration, as there are no official regulators/weak regulation.
The 3rd party arbitrator will investigate and mediate. Ultimately producing a report that rules in favor of either the casino or the player.
In cases of confiscations, the rulings are almost always based on whether the casino has the grounds for the confiscation or not. It almost always comes down to T&Cs.
If the mediator rules against the casino, The “severity” (relevant later) of the ruling depends on how unethical the casino behaved during the specific case. Greyzone confiscations are less severe for the casino, and unjustified confiscations are much more severe.
There are many other affiliates that read the reports of these mediators to make decisions on which casinos to recommend. In addition, all of the mediators themselves also make decisions based on their own reports. 
When a casino racks up multiple complaints ruled in favor of the player, it will hit a threshold where the mediators will blacklist them. Having more severe rulings against it will get the casino to the blacklist threshold faster. 
Other affiliates who are not mediators will also start to blacklist casinos based on the reports they see from what the mediator publishes. In the big picture, mediator reports are more useful for affiliates than for players for self protection. 
Affiliates have no incentive to promote dangerous casinos for many reasons. Limited space, limited player resources, and if something goes wrong, it would also damage an affiliate’s reputation. Hence affiliates are always looking for red flags and trying to promote the safest casinos. Once blacklisted, a “domino effect” often happens where more and more sites will blacklist these same casinos.
A lot of any online casino’s traffic comes from affiliates. Yes, it is true that 3rd party arbitrators can not enforce their ruling on an offshore casino. However, that doesn’t mean there are no consequences for the casino. They would realize they’d lose out on potential players who read those warnings and not play at their casino. As well as potential affiliates who read those warnings and blacklist their casino. And they would realize it’s a lot better to obey the ruling from the arbitrator and pay the player, than face the consequences. Especially if the case and ruling is crystal clear, not even remotely in the gray zone territory.
 Unfortunately most players don’t know how to file complaints or get 3rd party mediation. For every one complaint in the mediator’s hands, 10, maybe 20, maybe more similar cases are happening to other players who don’t know how to publicly voice their grievance.

Finally, regarding my own case. I am deeply suspicious of the operator’s demand for the call. They are well aware that I am trying to keep everything in writing. Frankly I do not understand what their intention is with demanding the call. I am completely fine making the call if I feel safe and know it’s in my best interest. But right now all I know is I made it abundantly clear to them I’m probably obtaining 3rd party mediation and want to keep everything in writing. That they demand it to be off writing and refuse to tell me the reason or their intentions.

Thanks!

Hi bacaratt123,

Unfortunately after repeated efforts to contact the operator to discuss this issue we have received no response what-so-ever. At this juncture we have no reasonable expectation of this changing.

With regard to the affiliate ecosystem you describe, there are a number of flawed assumptions in there. The first is that affiliates prioritise the safest operators for players. In our experience, most affiliates prioritise the most commercially lucrative deal for themselves.

Second is the assumption affiliate based mediators blacklist operators based on unresolved complaints. In our experience, most affiliate sites move to blacklist operators where they struggle to get paid their affiliate commission, not for any other reason.

Beyond this, large volumes of players will be unhappy, not because of anything wrong with the service they received, but simply because they lost. This results in large numbers of invalid 'reviews' posted online by players. So most gambling operators have a high tolerance to negative reports published online.

In the modern era, consumer knowledge of how to complaint online is fairly high.

In our opinion, your only realistic option right now is to engage with the requested call. It is unlikely that any other course of action will have a positive outcome for you.

Sorry we could not be of further help.

ThePOGG

Hello the Pogg,

Please keep this complaint open and allow me some time to communicate with the operator. It might take a while, but I don't want to close the complaint just yet. 

Thanks!

Hi bacaratt123,

As stated above, the operator is non-responsive to us. There is nothing further we can do to assist you.

ThePOGG

I understand they are unresponsive. However the reason I do not want to close the complaint while having an ongoing discussion with them has more to do with what we said during the complaint. I don’t want the report to be public during this process. And if it does end up failing, I still don’t want the report to be published as it only creates ill will with the operator and accomplishes nothing.

Hi bacaratt123,

We can delay the publication of the report for a short period of time. However:

a) all complaint submissions receive a published complaint report to inform other players about the practices of the operator and 

b) any personal information will be redacted before publication.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Let's delay it until I have some kind of conclusion from the operator, I'll let you know when I'm ready, thanks!

Despite our repeated efforts to contact BetUS to discuss this issue we have received no response whatsoever from the operator.

Hello The Pogg. Before I start I want to quickly say that please don’t publish this publicly yet! I’m basically asking for advice on what I should do. So please don’t contact the casino yet either!
 
 In short, the casino knows this case might be headed towards arbitration, but refused my request to “keep everything in writing”. Every arbitrator would want the communications to be in writing, especially after an incident already happened. The casino is insisting on me calling them. I’m not only uncomfortable with this but also deeply suspicious of their motives.
 
 I’m looking for advice on what I should do regarding the casino trying to keep the communication “Off-writing” by insisting on the call. There’s already a confiscation involved. Having a critical part of the conversation off-writing would allow them to possibly create a “he-said-she-said” situation and put the arbitrator in a difficult position.
 
 My case might be one of the weirdest you’ve ever seen. It looks like it’s either an innocent misunderstanding, caused by a low ranking security personnel not understanding how high rollers work. Or, it’s [EDIT]. 
 
 I’ll go ahead and give you more details on the broader situation. If this case does indeed end up in arbitration (The Pogg), then the rest of this message, with a lot of  rephrasing and rewording, will be the official complaint. 
 
 For now I’m still hoping to resolve the issue with the casino internally. As I do think all this could just be a misunderstanding that is easily sorted out if the right person sees it. But I’ve already reached an impasse with casino customer service regarding having conversation off-writing.
 
 I tried to keep all my communications in writing after the confiscation happened. So I do have all the chat logs and internal messages from the casino. If you need them just ask. I won’t copy paste them now because they’re quite long. I’ll summarize and give highlights.
 
 
 
 Key details overview:
 
 $4860 confiscated for the reason of “Professional play”
 BetUS does not have any “FU” term/ “Catchall” aka “spirit of the bonus” Term in their T&amp;Cs. Hence this confiscation breached their own terms.
 I have two jobs and two kids. I am not a professional gambler.
 No bonuses were involved to begin with as far as this confiscation is concerned. This was confirmed by customer support.
 I’ve lost every bonus that I’ve claimed at this casino. This was a long time before the confiscation. They have two rollovers, something I’ve never seen elsewhere. I’ve always ended up losing my deposit and bonus at some point.
 I’ve only started winning after I stopped claiming bonuses. This was over 3 months ago. Since then, I’ve had wins and losses, deposits and withdrawals. Many times, without problem, until the confiscation.
 I was a losing player while using bonuses and only won after I deposited without bonuses. This is the opposite of what “professional” players do.
 I’m a high roller, my bet size per round is usually hundreds of dollars, often over $1000.
 Their actual reason for confiscation (relayed to me by customer support). Was that “I won too much compared to my deposit, so they were suspicious”.
 Customer support suggested bribing the management to restore account access. In his own words, “Well, the reason your account is disabled is because you won too much. So if you offer management money, that’s probably the best way to negotiate with them.”
 I wrote to them to let them know that I want to resolve this issue peacefully and internally if possible, but will resort to 3rd party arbitration if it fails.
 I informed them that per arbitrator request, as well as my own safety, all communication should be in writing.
 They insist I call them, while repeatedly telling me “There’s no need for 3rd party arbitration”
 They never even asked me for verification documents. They just straight up went for the confiscation.
 No other casino has EVER called me a “professional”, or confiscated my money, or revoked my bonus privilege. In other words, “Another casino in the industry told us you’re a professional” is not possible.
 I am deeply suspicious why they insist on dragging this conversation off-writing with the vague promise of “it’s the best way to resolve the situation”.
 If this is a genuine misunderstanding, I’d like to keep playing at this casino in the future. If it’s [EDIT], I’d want to spread the message and let other players know what would happen if they’re lucky enough to win.
 I’m up $6000 on the house. I’ve had a total of $5000 deposit and $11000 withdrawal.
 
 
 More details:
 
 BetUS confiscated $4860 of my balance after requesting a withdrawal.
 Their reason was that “I violated their terms”, “the terms say recreational players only” and that I’m a “professional gambler”.
 
 First of all I am not a professional gambler, that is insulting. I have two jobs, a full time job as a warehouse manager and a part time job as a sales associate. On top of that I’m a single mom of two young daughters. I can prove that I have two jobs with things like tax returns and hence, not a “professional gambler”.
 
 
 Secondly - I did not breach their terms. They have NO term that allows them to confiscate my balance. The only term they have is that: “Casino is intended for recreational players only” (Which yes, I’m recreational). 
 
 Let me explain what I mean,
 
 They literally do NOT have a term that allows them to confiscate the balance of a “professional” gambler. They do not have the “Catch-all” clause / “FU” clause i.e. spirit of the bonus clause. To be crystal clear, They do NOT have a term that looks like this: “Bonuses are for recreational players only. Players found to be abusing the bonus, in the sole discretion of the management, shall have their winnings confiscated and deposit refunded.” They do NOT have that. In other words, they broke their own terms by confiscating when the terms do not allow doing so.
 
 
 Here’s the part that demonstrates why I said this case might be one of the weirdest you’ve ever seen.
 
 Because my confiscation had absolutely nothing to do with bonuses. According to customer support I just “won too much”.
 
 
 So it’s not even just that “Bonuses are intended for recreational players only”, they literally had to rephrase it as “CASINO is intended for recreational players only” when they wrote to me.
 
 The last bonus I took was over 3 months ago, which I lost during the rollover, deposit included. In fact, I have never won a bonus at this casino. I always bust out sooner or later. They have two rollovers back to back per bonus, which is something I’ve never seen before. You have to first do a 30x on your deposit and bonus amount, and whatever money you have left from that balance, do another 30x on that number. I’ve always lost my deposit + bonus at this casino, so I just completely realized these bonuses are bait with those kinds of rollovers and decided to deposit without bonus. I actually started winning after depositing without bonuses.
 
 I was able to deposit, play and withdraw without bonus, many times, over 3 months just fine, until the confiscation. 
 
 
 Anyway, I was able to confirm it had nothing to do with bonuses by asking customer support to look into my case.
 
 His responses were absolutely disgusting. I’m not referring to him personally here, I was referring to what he told me about why they flagged me as professional and how to handle it.
 
 
 I wish I was joking. But he told me that the casino security noticed my winnings (withdrawal - deposit) to my deposit ratio was too high, in a short time frame. That was pretty much it.
 
 “They were suspicious because you won several thousands and your account is only 7 months old and your deposit amount is low, so they flagged you.”
 
 
 Oh, is that really so? My total deposits were around $5000 and total withdrawals around $11000. So that’s a net win of $6000. Do we need to send the mathematicians to figure out what is the probability of winning $6000 on a $5000 total deposit? Because here’s the critical piece of information - my bet sizes were hundreds of dollars per hand/per round. Often even exceeding $1000 in one round (for example when I have to split and double down in blackjack on a $500 bet, or mississippi stud where you might start with $100 and get good starting cards, and keep raising 3x on every street). 
 
 
 This is why I still see hope that the issue could have a possibility of being peacefully resolved with the casino before going to arbitration. It looks like the person who flagged me as professional was just a total idiot who just had no idea what “high roller” is. That he was looking at my deposit:win ratio rather than my Bet size:Win ratio. So if I can find someone in the casino management that does understand high rolling has nothing to do with the initial bank roll, but the average bet size, this situation could be easily resolved. [EDIT].
 
 I heard that if you bet a penny on a coin flip, and win 20 times in a row, you’d have over a million dollars. Of course that would mean the final bet is half a million, while the initial “deposit” is $0.01. In the eyes of this security staff it would be PROFESSIONAL PROFESSIONAL.
 
 
 You might not believe your eyes if you see the chat log. When I asked the agent what he proposed I should do to get my casino access back. He said “Well, you should offer management some money. Since the whole situation is caused by you winning too much money, that’s probably the best way to negotiate with them.”
 
 Uh… no. There’s a $4860 confiscation involved. 
 
 
 I did not “offer them money” as suggested. Instead, I wrote a polite message addressed to management. In the message, I explained that I have two jobs and two kids to look after. My wins are easily explainable as long as you’re looking at the bet size, not the deposit amount. I told them that $6000 win in 7 months is NOTHING by high roller standards. And that I’ve had swings in the thousands DAILY, sometimes up, sometimes down. I’ve seen people at my local casino with wins that are much much bigger in mere minutes.
 
 I also told them that I’ve played almost all the table games, video poker, and dozens of slot games in the casino, and my bet sizes are huge on all of them. I’ve done plenty of sports betting too. In fact, more than $500 of that confiscated $4860 was winnings from sports bets from the previous day. How does someone get any more recreational than that? No bonuses, plays all the games. From what I’ve heard professional players always hone in on one game, and do their entire rollover on that one game, cash out the bonus and move on to the next casino. It’s as opposite as my situation as it gets.
 
 More importantly, I told them that as much as I wish the situation to be resolved internally and peacefully, but if communication with management fails, I will take the case to arbitration. 
 
 
 That brings me to the problem I was originally talking about at the beginning of this message.
 
 I tried to log in after sending the message but was unable to. I reached out to customer support again and this time he said they wanted me to call. 
 
 I explained that given there’s already a confiscation involved, it means it could end up in arbitration. And that every third party arbitrator would want everything in writing. 
 
 He kept pressuring me on the call. I once again told him several times that it’s almost a universal standard for arbitrators to want everything in writing. And for my own safety so do I. 
 
 He said he thinks it’s much easier to resolve the situation by making the call rather than involving a 3rd party arbitrator. I acknowledged he has a point, however, if I allow this communication to go off-writing, it can end up in “He said she said” and put the arbitrator in a tough position. He kept saying there’s no need to go to 3rd party arbitration and the call can solve the situation.
 
 He at some point flat out said “My job right now is to get you on the phone”. I interpret this as what his superiors specifically instructed him to do. 
 
 I said I don’t want to take the risk of the arbitration failing just because a critical part of the communication was not in writing. I said I’d need to ask the arbitrator for permission first.
 
 I told him I’m willing to make the call only if he can assure me the situation can be guaranteed to be resolved with the call, and never ending up in arbitration. In other words, give me a guarantee that if I call, I will get my money back and account access restored, and I’ll call. Otherwise I’ll need the arbitrator’s permission first.
 
 He couldn’t make that guarantee.
 
 So then I told him I’ll have to communicate with the arbitrator first. And ask if it’s ok for me to have this off-writing conversation with the casino on the phone. I told him the arbitrator is very likely going to ask what nature is this call. As in, for what purpose is the call that they insist must not be in writing.
 
 He didn’t answer my question, only to reiterate “to move forward we need to have you call”.
 
 He dodged answering what the purpose of the call is. I am deeply suspicious that they have some kind of unknown agenda to drag this conversation off-writing just in case it ends up in arbitration. They never even asked me for verification documents (ID, utility bill, etc). Just flat out went for confiscation. This makes me even more suspicious that their motives might just be flat out theft.
 
 Or perhaps, it’s still an innocent misunderstanding. An underpaid unhappy employee in security  who did a terrible job and is trying to cover his ass with his superiors. But at this point, I don’t know.
 
 
 I’ll finally finish off with my goal. My primary goal is still based on the belief that this could a simple misunderstanding, that if I find the right person who knows how high rollers work, that this can be easily resolved. There are many reasons that I want to keep playing at BetUS if this situation can be resolved. (Such as they have a lot of software providers on their site, their sports betting lines being usually better than other bookies, the fact they have a loyalty program where almost none of the other bookies do, their payouts are very fast, etc etc etc….) I would like to continue playing at this casino.
 
 My account is currently disabled and my primary goal is to re-enable account access and reinstate confiscated funds. So that I can keep playing, keep high rolling, moving forward. I would consider this a fully satisfactory resolution. If that fails, then my secondary goal is to get my $4860 confiscated balance back. As they have literally no right, even based on their own terms, to make that confiscation. 
 
 On the more sinister side, however, perhaps this whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with “high rolling” but rather just “winning”. Perhaps if they figured that they could simply just confiscate the top winners, they could [EDIT] a lot of money and still keep most of their player base. Perhaps they think they won’t face any consequences [EDIT]. If that’s the case then the player base needs to know what would happen if one day, luckily, or in fact unluckily, they themselves become a “top winner”. Hence the tertiary goal, if they refuse to pay, is to spread the word and warn other players. 
 
 
 My questions for you: 
 
 What should we do? Should I make the call, or is it better for you to write to them? Me telling them everything should be in writing obviously did nothing. But perhaps you, as the arbitrator, asking them why they insist on keeping the conversation off writing could change their mind?
 
 I’m deeply suspicious about this call. What do you think the call is actually about and do you think the situation can indeed be resolved by the call?
 
 If you do give me permission to make the call, should I record the call?
 
 If I do record the call, how much weight does the call record carry compared to being in writing? Especially since I live in a “two party state” where it’s supposedly illegal to record without both sides' consent.
 

BetUS - $4860 confiscation for "professional play"

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