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Hi AlbertB - welcome to ThePOGG.com!

While I don't particularly like the practice of requesting Notarized ID, I can say that there are times and place where these requests are absolutely justified. 

I'll contact InterCasino to see if I can find out why this request has been made. I will say in advance that it's very unlikely that I will be able to publish or forward the reason, but I will provide an opinion on whether or not I feel the request was justified. 

Regardless, my experience tells me - given the size of withdrawal you've made - that it's extremely unlikely that your withdrawal will be paid without providing the requested ID. That being the case you will have to make a decision as to whether you want to deal with the proportionally insignificant fee for acquiring Notarized ID or not receive your funds. The choice will be that straight forward.

I'll let you know as soon as I have some useful information.

ThePOGG

Hi AlbertB,

I want to address your last email as a post as I think there's value to allowing other people to read the response (after the complaint is closed ;) ).

Firstly, with regard to the casino asking for verification at point of withdrawal rather than the point you signed-up/deposited, I agree that optimally verification should be done before you deposit, however there are a number of very good reasons that this doesn't happen;

1) If you've played at any other online casino, you'll know that requesting verification rarely - and I do mean very rarely - happens before a withdrawal is requested. What you're criticising InterCasino for is an industry wide practice and as such singling out one casino is irrelevant.

2) The primary reason that ID is requested at point of withdrawal rather than point of sign-up is that it's an off putting process. Any casino that tried to enforce a pre-play verification would find that the conversion from players signing up to players actually depositing would drop off dramatically. It's intimidating to be asked to provide documents regardless of when this happens and it's frustrating to have to deal with when you want to play and could simply go to any other online casino and play instantly.

3) This issues in point 2 are somewhat negated by requesting verification at point of withdrawal as the player now has the incentive - that being they want their money - to engage with this frustrating process.

4) Pre-verification would not prevent situations like this one. While verifying ID/proof of address is one part of the anti-fraud measures that have to be taken by all online casinos, they only make up one part of the information that is examined. While I cannot go into detail about the processes that are in place and why they are put in place I can say that a multitude of other information that is generated by the financial transactions and actual gameplay are examined. These could not be done prior to a deposit.

There are many good reasons for the verification process to take place when it does, even if they aren't readily apparent to the average player.

As to the specifics of your issue - while I don't like requests for Notarized ID and I completely understand how frustrating they are and would sympathize with any player that decided not to engage with a casino again after such a request, there are times and places where these requests are justified.

I have discussed this issue with InterCasino and specifically ask why this request was made. In this instance I agree with InterCasino's decision that a heightened security procedure is warranted.

I can't discuss the reasons for this decision and neither will InterCasino. I'm working on the assumption that you are a completely legitimate player here who has simply been caught out due to unfortunate circumstances, but the publication of the reasons for this request would jeopardise the entire process. Once it becomes public knowledge what steps casinos take to detect and prevent fraud, those individuals and groups who are actively engaged in fraudulent activities simply adjust their practice to make it more difficult to detect them. 

As such it would be very unwise of a casino to either discuss with a player what the issue is or to talk to an affiliate like myself unless they are sure the information shared will be dealt with securely.

If you intend to hold to your statement that you will not get Notarized ID before InterCasino offer you an explanation, I can tell you in advance that you will NOT receive the demanded explanation. I can also tell you that if you decide not to provide the requested ID I will not support your complaint. It's that simple. You asked for a 3rd party to look at the issue, I have and in this instance I agree with the actions that InterCasino have taken. If you provide the Notarized ID I then have grounds to support you further, but I would ask you to wait while I discuss the issue further with InterCasino before you go and get your ID notarized. Essentially I want to ensure that if you provide valid NID that you will then be paid before you spend the money on an appointment with a lawyer.

I understand that this may not be the response you were hoping for, but I ask you to remember that I'm a mediator. I look at both sides of the situation and try to be fair to both parties. In fairness I do understand that there have been concerns raised about your account and as such I do support the additional security requirements. In fairness I want to ensure that as long as these requirements are met - especially considering that NID is not something that can be acquired free - that you will be paid.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi AlbertB,

I'm going to post the content of your email and offer my response again publicly as I feel it's a valuable exercise;

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Thank you for the response. I was not asking you to bully the casino I think you did everything you can do. If they will give me no reason then I feel they just make it up. I am not fraud. I will complain to all other place I can and send a letter to the gaming commission. If nothing work then I will go do notary, then I will start this process all over again and still I think not get pay. I am convince they only do not want to pay. If I truly feel they only want to do a responsible duty to verify me I would give no problem. The feel I get from the way everything has gone is they only want to harass me and hold my money. If that is true or not true you can argue, but those are my true feeling and opinion.

As for your point #1... doing something bad because everyone else does it is a very bad reason. I think your mother and everyone else in the world learn this when they are 5 year old.

Point #2... yes I am smart enough to understand this and that is why I am angry. They give people feeling like it is "easy" to only sign up and play casino... the truth is it is only easy to sign up and play if you lose. If you win it is very difficult and annoying process. That is bad advertisement and they mislead their customer on purpose. To me that is a scam when they take it this far. Maybe if they only ask for ID it is only unfair advertisement because there are different level of misleading people. But when you advertise how easy and fast it is to play the casino and people feel like they can play "instant" game only to later tell them it is only easy when they lose and not easy when they win that is bad. And the more different the reality is from what they advertise the more it become a scam. To send an ID is annoying and they would lose some player if they were honest, but I do not feel that is scam. But 100% I would never play there and many other player would not play there if we know we must spend our own money and time to get a notary if we win. This is like 100 Euros for a notary and I already spend hours and hours with this. They give me a bonus but if you win money with the bonus they give you automatically spend that entire bonus on hassle and paying for notary. That is a 100% scam and I think if I ask a lawyer and send to commission I will have valid argument here.

Now, even to look past all of that scam, I still give them everything they ask but notary, and after I give notary I really feel they will ask something more. This is a very very scam process to keep tell someone they need x,y,z if they want to be verify and paid. Then they get x,y, and z and promise payment. Then they tell you they lie and really will not pay unless you give a, b, and c. I think it is reason for me to follow the pattern here and know when I give a,b, and c they will verify me and tell me I will have money in 1 day and then tell me next day they will not pay me because they need f,g and h to really really really verify me and then they will pay. They can make me look at my tail over and over. The longer they do this the longer they have my money and they increase chance I will give up and they never need to pay me. This is even worse scam than bad advertising. So really there are 2 scam here. I believe all online casino do this and that why no one trust online casino not to cheat them and I am stupid to ever play online casino. I think this is the last one I ever play now but I still will fight this scam.

Thank you for your help again but must you please understand why I not just give notary and why I am not happy to only get pay now. This is about a big scam, not only a notary document.</blockquote>


And my response;

You have to understand that at the point that you decide to go to other forums my involvement in this issue will end and I will mark the complaint as 'Found for the Casino'. At that point you are choosing to directly go against the advice I've given and as such devaluing any further contribution I can make.

To respond to your points; your first point about not doing bad just because everyone else does isn't valid. In a competitive market, if you intentionally offer a service that customers will find weaker than their competitors then obviously that's a very poor business decision. Alongside this I've already explained the other justifications for why verification has to take place after play, so this is a case of the market balancing what the majority of players will accept which coincides with what best helps them prevent criminal practice. 

Regarding what you call 'misleading', as I've explained to you 3 times now the process you're being asked to complete is not standard. The vast majority of players (I'd guess at well over 99%) will only ever have to complete standard verification at InterCasino. More than that, after standard verification has been completed they will be able to deposit and withdraw quickly. The advertisement of their normal practices is completely accurate. As I've stated previously this process is specifically being applied to your account, not because you've won, but because there are indicators that strongly suggest that you may not be who you claim to be. This has nothing to do with how much you won. The justifications provided to me did not include the win as a factor.

I would also point to InterCasino's terms and conditions. I'll quote the relevant term below;

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"6.8
Notwithstanding the provisions of this Clause 6, the Licensor may, in its sole and absolute discretion, refuse to process any Transfer Transaction for any reason whatsoever or modify the means by which users of the ECash Service may affect a Transfer Transaction. The Licensor reserves the right to require you to provide verification of identity, age, place of residence and such other information as it may deem appropriate or as may be required by the Lotteries and Gaming Authority of Malta and to withhold any monies until the requested information is provided. In accordance with the Malta Remote Gaming Regulations, prior to processing aggregate withdrawals in excess of Euro 2,000 (or equivalent amount in another currency), your identity, age and place of residence must be verified.

Forms of identification or other information may include:

d. If deemed necessary notarized or certified documentation might be requested: Your documents will need to be authenticated by an appropriate qualified Notary/Solicitor and signed and stamped as proof of legitimacy".</blockquote>

As you'll see from the above term, InterCasino clearly and concisely inform players that notarization may be required to verify their account. As you've signed up and it's the player's responsibility to ensure they've read and agreed to all terms before they played, you have already agreed to engage with this process if necessary. If you fail to do so, you are actually in breach of casino terms and conditions. 

There are casinos vastly over use requests for Notarization and you'll see within the reviews on this site which casinos they are and also that I do not work with them. InterCasino do not use this procedure frequently and given what has been shown to me, I stress again this security procedure has been correctly applied in this instance. Had I felt that this process was being applied for company gain or without adequate evidence to justify concerns over your account, I would have stated exactly that to InterCasino.

Finally, regarding your concerns about not receiving your funds after submitting NID - I've already stated to you to delay while I discuss the issue with InterCasino. I'm looking to gain assurances that if you provide NID your balance will be paid in full. I know for a fact that InterCasino place a lot of value in their status on ThePOGG, during previous complaints they have paid out tens of thousands of € based on our advice - they would not jeopardise their position here by reneging on assurances given to us. 

You ask for my understanding as to why you won't provide notarized ID. I'm afraid that if your intention is to go to public forums and repeat the accusations you've made here including your refusal to provide the requested NID without a explanation for the request from InterCasino, and despite the fact that I've explained the situation to you fully including pointing out the terms and conditions that you've already agreed to, I can't view your actions as anything other than an attempt to blackmail InterCasino into dropping this requirement through the use of negative publicity. Given that you've agreed to this requirement in advance and the request is justified that leads me to the conclusion that there are 2 possible motives for your lack of cooperation;

1) You can't provide the requested ID in which case the request validates itself.

2) You are trying to force InterCasino to release sensitive security procedures, which would again lead to a very negative conclusion.

As stated at the beginning of this response, if that's the route you chose to pursue you'll get no further help from this site. I will also openly state that I will authorize InterCasino to make reference to this report on any forums that this issue is raised on.

This really is very very simple; when you choose to prioritise making a point of principal over receiving €3000 I'm 100% convinced that most regular players would agree with me that this is a very odd and position to take. Posting that you did not like the verification process after receiving your funds would be absolutely normal, but jeopardising your final payment of a sum of money that the vast majority of people would consider large at this stage in the process is at the very least reckless if not flat out suspicious.

I would appreciate it if you could inform me of your intention to allow me to either continue my conversation with InterCasino or close this complaint as appropriate.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi AlbertB,

I spent an hour on the phone yesterday discussing this issue with InterCasino.

For the time being I'm going to ask you consider the request for Notarized ID 'on hold'. Do not go out and spend money on this just now.

There is an ongoing investigation into your account that should be concluded next week. Depending on the results of that investigation - which I will be allowed to review - one of two things will happen;

1) you will receive a final decision that InterCasino will not pay your balance or

2) you will be asked to provide Notarized ID and if you supply verifiable NID you will be paid

Regarding your email from a couple of days ago;

If the request for NID is upheld and you provide the required NID (bear in mind that this will have to be verified),  if InterCasino then renage on the assurances they have given me to pay you of course this will reflect poorly on the casino.

My stance on this is straight forward - NID costs the player money, so it should only be used as the final deciding factor in any investigation. If providing NID is not ultimately going to result in the player being paid, the request has been misused and the casino have behaved inappropriately.

I'll let you know as soon as I have more information.

ThePOGG

I have receive the final report from InterCasino on this issue and the decision has been taken not to pay AlbertB's win.

Having reviewed said report I do agree with the conclusions reached by InterCasino that the associations between this player's account and other accounts are substantially unlikely to be coincidental in nature and as such am not prepared to have any further involvement in representation of this player.

As a result of this case, I am now looking at building into the Deposit Guarantee a term stipulating that seal holding casinos will only request Notarized ID in situations where receipt of valid Notarized documents will serve as the deciding factor as to whether a player will be paid or not. This would be intended to prevent situations where a player provides Notarized ID and still is not paid. This will take some time to organize and an announcement will be made when it is in place.

ThePOGG

InterCasino presented evidence that strongly supports the conclusion that this player was involved in running multiple accounts.

I try to cash out almost €3,000 at Intercasino.
 
 They email me and said they need verification before they can send my money.  They tell me they need a scan of the front and back of my ID and a bank statement.  I give them both.  Then a day later they send me this.
 
 "Dear [EDIT],
 
 Account number: [EDIT]
 Username: [EDIT]
 
 Hello and thank you for contacting Ecash Direct.
 Please be advised that your account has been fully verified.
 Your withdrawals requested by Neteller, will be sent today. You shall receive the funds by end of business day today.
 We appreciate your patience on this matter and apologies for any inconvenience caused."
 
 I wait for my money but it never come.
 
 The next day I get an email from Intercasino.  They tell me they are not going to pay me because I am not verified.  They say they will only pay if I send them ANOTHER copy of my ID, this time while I am holding it in front of me.  They also say they want a public notary to verify I am me.
 
 This sounded completely absurd but I held my ID and took a picture in front of myself and sent it to them anyway.  I told them a public notary isn't free and there is no chance they really need it to actually verify me.  This is clearly only to make cash out a hassle for their customer.  They are going to cost me money only to cash out?
 
 I want to know how I can do everything they ask and they agree I do everything they ask and say they will pay me and I am verify, then before payment they change their mind.  Every time I do everything they ask they only play a game with me and say, "Sorry, we want more..." eventually this must stop and I am sure they will not admit they do it on purpose to delay cash outs and make it very difficult to take money but there is no argue that it works in the casino favor to hold money for as long as possible and the motive for them to do this is there.  It took me less than 5 minutes to deposit money on their site and I needed no verification at all... to get paid money I win fair they delay and delay and I do everything they ask and after they ask for more.  Completely absurd!  I hope this is a warning to anyone thinking about playing there in the future and I know I will never play there again!

Intercasino - makes payout unreasonably difficult

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